On this “Face the Nation with Margaret Brennan” broadcast, moderated by Margaret Brennan:
- French President Emmanuel Macron
- Syrian President Ahmed Al-Sharaa
- Gary Cohn, IBM vice chairman and former director of the U.S. Nationwide Financial Council
Click on right here to browse full transcripts from 2025 of “Face the Nation with Margaret Brennan.”
MARGARET BRENNAN: I am Margaret Brennan in Washington.
And this week on Face the Nation: As world leaders collect in New York for the United Nations Normal Meeting, we’ll speak solely with two of them.
Plus, the Federal Reserve cuts rates of interest by a quarter-point. What does that sign for the financial system?
With Russia and Israel intensifying their offensive efforts in each the battle in Ukraine and the Israel-Hamas battle, we’ll preview an important week forward, as President Trump heads to his first U.N. assembly of his second time period.
French President Emmanuel Macron tells us why France and different U.S. allies will acknowledge Palestinian statehood, regardless of robust opposition from the U.S. and Israel.
Plus, we traveled to Syria for an upcoming 60 Minutes piece and spoke to the nation’s new president, Ahmed al-Sharaa. He would be the first Syrian president to deal with the U.N. in almost 60 years. We are going to inform you why he is such a controversial determine.
Lastly, former White Home financial adviser Gary Cohn will be part of us to speak in regards to the cooling labor market, tariffs and extra.
It is all simply forward on Face the Nation.
Good morning, and welcome to Face the Nation.
Most of our dialog with French President Emmanuel Macron was about his plan to finish the battle in Gaza. You will note that in our subsequent half-hour.
Once we spoke with him Thursday on the Elysee Palace in Paris, we requested him about NATO scrambling jets for the primary time within the alliance’s historical past to shoot down Russian drones that had crossed into Poland and Romania. The day after we spoke, three Russian warplanes crossed into Estonia too.
President Trump was requested in regards to the incident in Poland 10 days in the past.
(Start VT)
DONALD TRUMP (President of america): May have been a mistake. May have been a mistake. However, regardless, I am not glad about something having to do with that complete scenario.
(Finish VT)
(Start VT)
MARGARET BRENNAN: Do you imagine that these incursions might have been a mistake, as President Trump has instructed?
EMMANUEL MACRON (French President): Very clearly, Russia is a destabilizing and aggressive energy in Europe. They elevated throughout the previous few weeks the assaults towards Kiev and killing quite a lot of civilians.
They destroyed official buildings of the Ukrainian authorities, however as nicely premises of the U.Okay. authorities, of the European Union. And, on the similar time, throughout the identical weeks, they violated the Polish and the Romanian air.
There is no such thing as a mistake. There’s only a mission which is to destroy the utmost territories of Ukraine, to have a victory in Ukraine, and simply to focus on what they need, the weak spot of NATO.
(CROSSTALK)
MARGARET BRENNAN: NATO says they’re nonetheless investigating. They aren’t as sure as you appear to be…
PRESIDENT EMMANUEL MACRON: No. I am not saying…
MARGARET BRENNAN: … that Russia did this deliberately.
PRESIDENT EMMANUEL MACRON: I simply say this isn’t completely – I – this isn’t a particular level. If we had a scenario the place they had been declining or reducing the assaults towards Kiev and – and on the battlefield, I might settle for this argument.
My level is to say, it is largely past that. My level is to say, take a look at what they did throughout the previous few weeks. So, I sincerely imagine that your president was dedicated and is dedicated to make peace in Ukraine.
And he engaged. He took the chance to make a summit with President Putin in Anchorage. And – and he requested for negotiations. And I believe he is proper.
However, on the similar time, I’ve to – simply to acknowledge that there isn’t a clear willingness of President Putin to be sincerely engaged in such a transfer, as a result of, as we had been engaged on a diplomatic means, as we had been attempting to arrange bilateral, trilateral, quadrilateral summit, the Russians had been rising the assaults in Donbass, however not simply in Donbass, intensified provocations on one facet and assaults on Kyiv on the opposite facet.
So I simply take a look at the information, and your president is as nicely wanting on the information. So, now what can we do? We now have to extend sanctions towards Russia, however we have now to seek out the best way to exactly put extra strain on Russia to deliver them again on the desk.
In parallel, let me insist on one level. Once we got here to Washington, D.C., a collection of European leaders with President Zelenskyy, we took a dedication. We are going to work to supply to Ukraine safety ensures. And we delivered. Just a few days in the past right here in Paris, we gathered what we name the coalition of the keen.
You’ve gotten 30 nations working collectively to be able to present the day-after peace safety ensures to Ukraine. So we have now all these components now with an historic dedication of the Europeans who present the safety ensures to Ukraine. What we’d like now could be Ukraine to be on the desk with Russia and negotiating what the peace settlement may very well be on territory, on safety assure, on the escalation, on restoration, et cetera.
(CROSSTALK)
MARGARET BRENNAN: And you do not see any proof of Russian curiosity? I imply, it has been greater than a…
PRESIDENT EMMANUEL MACRON: So, now we have now to step up, and we’d like political, navy and financial surge to be able to deliver them again on the desk and to barter.
MARGARET BRENNAN: It is now greater than a month since that Alaska Summit, that large danger you mentioned President Trump took. When he is been requested, so why not put sanctions or secondary tariffs on Russia, he factors again right here at Europe and the consumption of Russian oil and gasoline that also takes place.
I do know Hungary and Slovakia, for instance, proceed to make use of it.
PRESIDENT EMMANUEL MACRON: That is true. And we’re fixing it. And we had dialogue with Ursula von der Leyen. And she or he made nice work along with her groups to repair that.
However let’s be trustworthy. That is very marginal. This isn’t a key driver at present. We decreased by greater than 80 % the consumption of oil and gasoline. And I can inform you, as a result of we weren’t probably the most impacted as a rustic as a result of we had been much less depending on this oil, oil and gasoline coming from Russia.
However we have now to finalize, to complete the job. That is true. However now it is clearly far more that after we are to do – what we have now to do. We – we have now to step up our help to Ukraine, and we have now to supply the best way to raised resist to the brand new assaults on Kiev and civilians.
MARGARET BRENNAN: What is the delay on the sanctions or tariffs then?
PRESIDENT EMMANUEL MACRON: As quickly as doable. If it relies upon simply on me, tomorrow, nevertheless it would not simply rely upon me.
So I hope – I believe we have now to react collectively. If you’d like my – my robust view, I believe it is crucial. I believe all of us agree we would like peace. All of us agree the issue is Russia, as a result of they do not need peace. So now we have now to extend the strain to persuade Russia to come back again on the desk.
MARGARET BRENNAN: The U.S. has not contributed fighter jets to that new effort that was only recently introduced after the drone incursions. The supreme allied commander is an American.
However does that sign one thing to you, does that concern you that america is not extra muscular right here?
PRESIDENT EMMANUEL MACRON: No, I am not involved or nervous about that.
I wish to say that the NATO secretary-general labored very onerous, and all of us gathered and exchanged info with the Polish prime minister and the Polish president within the hours proper after this – what occurred. And, as an example, U.Okay. and France stepped up. And we despatched fighters.
Nevertheless it’s positive. We had been in a scenario to take action, and we’re completely credible. However, on the similar time, take a look at what the U.S. is doing in – on the jap flank of NATO. You’re a very robust contributor and dependable accomplice. So I do not wish to – to decrease this function and your dedication.
And – and I believe your president was very clear about as nicely his dedication to NATO. However I am completely in step with the truth that the Europeans need to step up. I’ve defended for years the truth that we’d like extra independence, extra strategic autonomy in Europe. And we’d like a stronger European pillar.
(Finish VT)
MARGARET BRENNAN: A yr in the past, if Syrian President Ahmed al-Sharaa had tried to come back to New York, he would have risked being arrested. The U.S. had a $10 million bounty on him due to his previous connections to the Islamic State and al Qaeda.
Al-Sharaa turned towards these teams years in the past.
(Start VT)
(CHANTING)
(Finish VT)
MARGARET BRENNAN: In December, he led the insurgent forces that toppled Syrian dictator Bashar al-Assad, who used bombs and chemical weapons towards his personal individuals.
(Start VT)
(PRESIDENT AHMED AL-SHARAA SPEAKING IN FOREIGN LANGUAGE)
(Finish VT)
MARGARET BRENNAN: Final week, I went to Syria and spoke with al-Sharaa for 60 Minutes. He accused the Assad regime of destroying whole communities and displacing 14 million individuals. He mentioned international funding is desperately wanted to rebuild.
In June, President Trump briefly waived some financial sanctions to assist Syria get better. However Congress, the U.N. and European nations must completely raise extra sanctions to attract long-term funding.
On Capitol Hill and in international capitals, there are individuals who do not belief Ahmed al-Sharaa. In New York, he hopes to reintroduce Syria to the world and maybe spend extra time with President Trump.
(Start VT)
MARGARET BRENNAN: Do you wish to meet once more with President Trump whenever you’re standing on U.S. soil?
AHMED AL-SHARAA (Syrian President) (by way of translator): President Trump took an enormous step in the direction of Syria by lifting the sanctions with a fast, brave and historic choice.
He acknowledged that Syria must be protected, secure and unified. That is within the best curiosity for all nations of the world, not simply Syria. I imagine the reply is sure. We have to talk about an ideal many points and mutual pursuits between Syria and the USA. We should restore relations in a great and direct means.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Lots of the officers that I spoke to about you describe you as a pragmatist. Different skeptics say that you just change to fulfill what you want to be in that second and that is necessary to know who you’re and the route you are taking Syria in.
Are you saying that you’re only a fully modified man?
PRESIDENT AHMED AL-SHARAA (by way of translator): I do not fully agree with the outline of pragmatist, as a result of, in Arabic, it has some adverse connotations.
The purpose is, let’s take a look at what’s taking place now, no matter what was mentioned within the media. In the present day, we have now actually saved the individuals from the oppression that was being thrust on them by the legal regime. And we have now restored hope for the people who find themselves refugees or internally displaced, to allow them to return to their homeland.
We supported the individuals who had been bombed with chemical weapons. We additionally confronted ISIS. We expelled the Iranian militias and Hezbollah from the area. All of those noble acts we took in Syria ought to have been the function of the worldwide neighborhood. However the worldwide neighborhood was unable to free a single prisoner or break the siege on a single city the place individuals had been ravenous to loss of life.
The worldwide neighborhood failed to discourage the regime from utilizing chemical weapons. So I do not imagine we must be standing accused on the protection desk, however we must be the one asking others, why did you stand silent as these horrible crimes had been going down in Syria?
MARGARET BRENNAN: You imagine the world failed Syria and now the world ought to assist rebuild it?
PRESIDENT AHMED AL-SHARAA (by way of translator): In fact. And I imagine the world should not be complicit once more within the killing of the Syrian individuals by slowing down or stopping the lifting of sanctions and stopping them from reconstructing their nation.
Anyone who stands towards the lifting of sanctions could be complicit in killing the Syrian individuals as soon as once more.
(Finish VT)
MARGARET BRENNAN: Extra of my interview with President al-Sharaa will seem on the brand new season of 60 Minutes.
And concerning that Russian incursion into Estonia on Friday, President Trump mentioned this morning he would assist Poland and the Baltic nations if Russia continues with its escalation.
Up subsequent, former White Home Financial Council Director Gary Cohn will be part of us.
Stick with us.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
MARGARET BRENNAN: We flip now to a take a look at the U.S. financial system.
Gary Cohn was the top of the White Home Nationwide Financial Council within the first Trump administration.
Good morning. Nice to have you ever again.
GARY COHN (Former Director, White Home Nationwide Financial Council): Good morning. Thanks for having me.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So, it lastly occurred. The Federal Reserve lowered rates of interest by a quarter-point, which was anticipated. So, charges at the moment are on this vary of 4 to 4.25 %, lowest stage since 2022.
The president had mentioned all this was overdue. What adjustments now?
GARY COHN: So, look, I believe the Fed gave us quite a lot of necessary info this final week. As you mentioned, they began down the trail of slicing rates of interest, going to 4 – to 4.25.
Additionally they gave us their outlook. So, the 17 governors gave us their projections to the place they suppose rates of interest are going. In order that plot that they put out reveals that, total, they imagine that rates of interest can be reduce two extra instances over the course of this yr. Now, it is not one hundred pc clear as a result of the committee is split.
There are about seven members of the committee that don’t need one other reduce this yr, however there are 10 members of the committee that need at the very least two extra cuts, and one desires greater than two cuts. In order that averages out to 2 cuts this yr, which might take the federal funds fee – and it is necessary to know it is the federal funds fee – would take that down to three.6 % for the – for year-end.
Effectively, what can also be necessary is, the committee was pretty unanimous. I believe individuals had been nervous in regards to the independence of the Fed. I believe the Fed clearly confirmed themselves to be unbiased thinkers. They took under consideration the entire financial knowledge, they usually got here out with a – projections that made sense based mostly on what’s going on within the financial system at present.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So, when charges go decrease, cash will get cheaper to borrow, basically.
GARY COHN: Effectively…
MARGARET BRENNAN: However what does it truly imply for shoppers?
GARY COHN: Sure and no.
So, what the Federal Reserve units is, they set the federal funds fee. That is the in a single day charges that banks cost one another to borrow on a secured foundation. It has nothing to do the place – with the place American shoppers borrow cash.
Sadly, American shoppers borrow cash on extra of the five-year, the seven-year, the 10-, and the 30-year charges, as a result of that is the place car loans, bank card loans, pupil loans, and mortgages are listed to. These rates of interest will not be decided by the Federal Reserve. They’re decided by the open market.
These charges, in reality, after they reduce charges earlier this week, went up a little bit bit. That mentioned, they’re down over the previous few months, however these charges don’t mechanically go down when the Federal Reserve cuts charges. They’ve extra to do with the market. And it is a supply-demand scenario that determines these charges.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So, one of many different issues the Fed highlighted right here is that the labor market is – quote – “actually cooling off.”
That is what Fed Chair Powell says.
GARY COHN: Sure.
MARGARET BRENNAN: The administration, the treasury secretary says, knowledge is dangerous. They are not seeing that within the jobs numbers.
So, which is it? What’s taking place right here?
GARY COHN: Effectively, the chairman went out of his solution to speak in regards to the twin mandate that the Fed has. The Fed has two necessities that they are purported to run rate of interest coverage off of. One is known as secure costs, which implies 2 % inflation. The opposite is full employment. Full employment is precisely what it feels like.
The chair mentioned, look, we’re going to need to cope with the complete employment a part of the equation, regardless that we nonetheless have inflation within the system. So the Federal Reserve itself and the Board of Governors admitted that we’re having a declining job market. And we see that. The information over the past three or 4 months, we have now gone from creating nicely over 100,000 jobs a month to creating lower than 50,000 jobs a month.
It might be non permanent. It might be fairly non permanent, however the actuality is, we have now seen the job market degrade. We now have additionally seen firms announce an infinite quantity of CapEx and – capital expenditures that is going to come back into the system.
I believe it is fascinating to take a step again and take a look at what is going on on on the earth at present. I do suppose that we have now seen firms in the reduction of on the quantity of workers they’ve. Once you take firms, and you set them in a really troublesome surroundings, and also you improve the price of enter prices – and inputs have been going up due to tariffs. They’ve been going up different causes.
They usually’re not capable of increase costs to the ultimate shopper. The one lever they’ll pull to ensure they maintain their margins intact is, they’ll reduce down on the price of labor. We got here out of a troublesome scenario in COVID, the place firms had been truly afraid about having the ability to appeal to and retain individuals. In order that they had been hoarding labor.
So we went from a hoarding labor scenario to a scenario at present the place firms are being very aggressive about managing their bills. And the one expense they’ll handle is the price of labor. In order that they’re letting their labor power decline naturally as individuals retire out of the labor system. And we’re seeing that within the knowledge.
And I believe it is clearly displaying up. And the Federal Reserve acknowledged that on this – on this week’s motion.
MARGARET BRENNAN: However whenever you ask the administration about this level, they’ll say, nicely, productiveness goes to extend, and there are these technological shifts which might be taking place, so this knowledge is distorted.
Are you talking particularly about tech, or are you saying throughout the board?
GARY COHN: I am saying throughout the board.
I imply, we’re – we have now seen throughout the board. And we see anecdotal proof of this. I’ve seen and I’ve heard it immediately from company CEOs in each enterprise line that they’ve gone out of their solution to reduce their human capital overhead.
So, simply the information for Q2 was fairly – fairly fascinating. Company revenues rose about 6.3 for Q2, and company earnings rose near 12 %. The best way you do this, except you are elevating costs on the patron – and we’ve not seen quite a lot of costs go as much as the patron – is, it’s a must to reduce one thing out of the expense bucket.
The one factor they’re slicing is, they’re slicing labor prices. We now have seen it within the U.S. knowledge. We now have seen it within the personal knowledge. And we have now seen it within the anecdotal knowledge.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So the president signed an govt order on Friday that I wish to ask you about, as a result of you have got this function at IBM and a few perception into tech.
The order goes to impose a $100,000 one-time price for visas granted to international staff, extremely expert staff, H-1B visas. “The Wall Avenue Journal” is reporting that this triggered, like, a panic, as a result of there wasn’t quite a lot of element, at, like, Apple, and Google, and Microsoft.
Did it trigger a panic at IBM?
GARY COHN: Effectively…
MARGARET BRENNAN: I imply, what is going on on?
GARY COHN: The – the – I believe it triggered a panic over the weekend as a result of individuals weren’t certain what was happening with the prevailing H-1B visas.
It has been cleaned up over the weekend. So, at this level, there’s not a panic within the system. Everybody who’s received an H-1B visa understands their standing and understands the way it – the way it’s – how it will work. I truly suppose it is a good thought.
If you happen to perceive the H-1B visa program in america, traditionally, it has been a lottery system. So firms have turned in for these visas, after which the U.S. authorities lotteries them off. If you happen to’re now telling an organization, look, you want to spend $100,000 to get one in all these visas, you are not simply going to ask for a visa and put a reputation within the lottery except that could be a extremely expert one that you want who you can’t rent in america.
This visa program is supposed for high-skilled labor the place you can’t rent that particular person in america. So if that is what it is used for, in the end, we’ll deliver high-skilled individuals into america. It’ll assist develop our financial system. And that is good for all of us.
MARGARET BRENNAN: We’ll see.
Gary Cohn, thanks on your insights, as at all times.
We’ll be proper again.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
MARGARET BRENNAN: We flip now to a different battle that can be within the highlight throughout U.N. week, Israel’s battle towards Hamas and the more and more bleak outlook for its conclusion.
CBS Sunday Morning’s Seth Doane studies from Tel Aviv.
(Start VT)
SETH DOANE (voice-over): It is an exodus with almost nowhere to go. Greater than 400,000 individuals have fled Gaza Metropolis, autos piled excessive with belongings. Leaflets provide the warning to maneuver, however present no earthly choices. Transport can price hundreds.
In its effort to destroy any refuge for Hamas, Israel has been leveling buildings. Its airstrikes are leaving children dazed too.
(WOMAN SPEAKING IN FOREIGN LANGUAGE)
SETH DOANE: “That is injustice,” this girl mentioned. “We’re drained. Day-after-day, there may be loss of life.”
This battle has killed greater than 65,000 individuals in Gaza, half of them girls and kids, in line with well being authorities in Gaza. And a United Nations fee says Israel is committing genocide. However Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu stays undeterred, likening Israel to a “Tremendous Sparta” of the Center East…
(MINISTER BEZALEL SMOTRICH SPEAKING IN FOREIGN LANGUAGE)
SETH DOANE: … whereas additionally this previous week Israel’s ultra-nationalist finance minister, Bezalel Smotrich, spoke of financial benefits to come back, saying Gaza presents an actual property bonanza, including that they’ve already performed the demolition part.
The total extent of the struggling in Gaza shouldn’t be one thing most Israelis see within the information right here, but, in line with a number of latest polls, the vast majority of Israelis need the battle to finish and wish the hostages returned dwelling. As pressures mount from the skin, there are additionally protests coming from inside.
YOTAM VILK (Israeli Reservist): So many individuals in Israel are…
SETH DOANE: Yotam Vilk, who penned an op-ed for The New York Occasions, was amongst about 150 Israeli Reservists to signal a letter in 2024 saying they’d refuse to report back to serve.
YOTAM VILK: I am keen to pay the value wanted for what I perceive is at present preventing for the state of Israel.
SETH DOANE: However you are not preventing now.
YOTAM VILK: I’m. That is me preventing for the state of Israel. The identical ethical stand that introduced me to indicate up on the seventh of October to defend the individuals of Israel is similar ethical stand that I am – that I – that introduced – like, that I am doing this.
(Finish VT)
MARGARET BRENNAN: Our Seth Doane reporting from Tel Aviv.
We can be proper again.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
MARGARET BRENNAN: Native authorities say that 100,000 individuals are anticipated in Glendale, Arizona, at present for the memorial service of Charlie Kirk. President Trump, Vice President Vance, and different administration officers pays tribute to the conservative activist. And safety is at a excessive stage, just like what’s in place for the Tremendous Bowl.
You possibly can watch full protection on our streaming channel, CBS Information 24/7, beginning at 2:00 p.m. Jap.
We can be proper again with much more Face the Nation, so stick with us.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
MARGARET BRENNAN: We’re again with a take a look at the diplomatic efforts to resolve the Gaza battle. Most nations on the earth acknowledge the correct of Palestinians to their very own state, with the U.S., Canada and France becoming a member of them this week. President Macron defined his choice. It is a transfer the U.S. is against.
(Start VT)
EMMANUEL MACRON (President of France): We now have to protect the situation of a political perspective for everyone. So, we might announce a recognition that which is the start of a political course of, and a peace and safety plan for everyone.
So, proper after this – this recognition, we have now a primary part, which is, I’d say, is the emergency part. Ceasefire, launch of all hostages, and, third, restoring the humanitarian roads and stabilization of Gaza.
You realize, the second bundle, which is the day after, we’ll revert into (ph) that, the right way to manage gathering (ph) when it comes to governance, safety, and building.
And third bundle, a perspective of the 2 states. However recognizing a Palestinian state at present is the one means to supply a political answer to a scenario which has to cease.
MARGARET BRENNAN: However you aren’t making the discharge of the hostages a situation earlier than recognition? That comes after?
PRESIDENT EMMANUEL MACRON: It is going to be – will probably be first the necessities very clearly earlier than opening, as an example, any embassy in – in Palestine.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So, Secretary of State Marco Rubio mentioned it is a reckless choice. That is the phrase he used. He mentioned, “it offers Hamas little incentive to truly begin diplomacy to launch the hostages.”
Why do you disagree with that sequencing?
PRESIDENT EMMANUEL MACRON: I believe most likely that is an extreme phrase, and I disagree with this method. Why? As a result of the target of Hamas is totally to not create a Palestinian state. The target of Hamas is to destroy Israel, to persuade a most variety of folks that they don’t have any probability to have peace and stability in exactly a Palestinian state, and – and to kill the utmost variety of Israeli individuals. And this is the reason. If we – we wish to cease this battle, if we wish to isolate Hamas, the popularity course of and the peace plan which works with this recognition course of is a pre-condition.
So, my first level is to say, I do not reply (INAUDIBLE). I do not combine the expectations of Hamas. Hamas is simply reverse (ph) by destroying Israel. However I acknowledge the legitimacy of so many Palestinian individuals who desire a state, who’re a individuals, they need a nation, they need a state, and we must always not push them towards Hamas. If we do not provide them a political perspective and such a recognition, the distinctive reply could be safety, and they are going to be fully tapped by Hamas as a singular (ph) possibility.
My second level is, due to the popularity, and due to the diplomatic transfer we launched, we began to isolate Hamas as a result of we, on the New York declaration, which was voted, as you understand, by 142 nations, we gathered all of (INAUDIBLE) states, the entire leaders of the areas to work carefully with us to exactly dismantle and disarm Hamas. To know that we’re not partaking in such a transfer.
Now, we gathered all these states, all these individuals who work carefully with us on this transfer. So, I believe this is the reason we are able to create the situation of a concrete motion first to provide this proper to the Palestinian individuals, second, to isolate Hamas from the remainder of the Palestinians in the entire area and exactly construct safety.
However let me inform you one thing which for me crucial on this context. Israel had fantastic safety outcomes towards Hezbollah, Hamas, high leaders, they usually managed to – to – to neutralize (ph) quite a lot of high choice makers of (INAUDIBLE). They did it. That is their advantage.
However when it comes to preventing towards Hamas, it is a failure at present. They begin
MARGARET BRENNAN: What’s a failure?
PRESIDENT EMMANUEL MACRON: As a result of they – they killed the entire key leaders. It is a success. However in the beginning of this battle, you had kind of 25,000 Hamas fighters. The Israeli military killed most likely half of them. However Hamas managed to recruit the equal. You’ve gotten as many fighters as on the very starting, which is the very best proof of the very fact, if we wish to dismantle Hamas, the overall battle shouldn’t be the reply as a result of it is simply killing the credibility of Israel. And, by the best way, weakening and killing our personal credibility if we do not make a transfer because the one we’re organizing.
MARGARET BRENNAN: However you simply pointed to one thing that Israeli Prime Minister Netanyahu would say, nicely this is the reason we have to proceed till we do away with each Hamas member. You are saying, you’ll be able to’t kill that concept. That you must present a unique thought?
PRESIDENT EMMANUEL MACRON: Precisely. However that is so – that is the entire perspective. And take a look at the scenario, not simply by the best way in Gaza, however in all places within the area. Hamas was clearly not backed by lots of people earlier than the seventh of October. If you happen to took the heart beat (ph) in Gaza, however in all of the nations of the area, they had been very low in all of the polls (ph). In the present day, the extent of help is way larger as a result of they’re making the error, in reality, to scale back the entire perspective of the Palestinians to Hamas. What we have now to say is, we would like the dismantling of Hamas. You had the success. There is no such thing as a extra high leaders. We wish to isolate them. We wish to – to deliver everyone working with us to dismantle the Hamas, however recognizing this proper to have a Palestinian state.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Proper.
PRESIDENT EMMANUEL MACRON: So, a diplomatic problem. That is simply giving one other channel and – and providing a political means in isolating Hamas. So, I believe there isn’t a future with the choice which might be simply, let’s kill the utmost variety of Hamas individuals as a result of they only recruit others and others as a result of every time they launch any such operations, they kill so many civilians that they’re simply destroying their very own fame and credibility and they’re creating an unsustainable framework of safety in the entire area.
MARGARET BRENNAN: However since October seventh, fashionable help in Israeli for a Palestinian state has additionally declined. Prime Minister Netanyahu has been opposed for a really, very very long time. And now he says that, simply take a look at these assaults that day. If you happen to permit for any sort of Palestinian state, will probably be a launchpad for terrorism. I imply that’s his argument, that this reveals you’ll be able to’t permit for the security and safety of Israel if there are two states. Why is he mistaken?
PRESIDENT EMMANUEL MACRON: First, I wish to – I wish to say that the seventh of October was a complete trauma for everyone in – in our nation right here as a result of we had so many French individuals being killed throughout the seventh of October terrorist assault launched by Hamas. And – and it was, for us, one of many largest terrorist assaults towards our personal fellow residents. However we – we did share and we do share the ache and the endure of the Israeli individuals and so many households. And for me, the highest precedence stays the discharge of hostages.
And I met very often households of – of hostages. And I’ve to say that what they stay is insufferable. And I – I had the chance to met with them. Yeta Hargiz (ph) mom and so a lot of them. And what they describe is – is totally insufferable.
However I contemplate that if we would like exactly to construct a sustainable peace for Israel, it is a – and for the Israeli individuals, a political course of and the popularity of a Palestinian state, if the state acknowledges the correct of Israel to depart and defend itself is demilitarized, has safety forces with the vetting course of by Israel, with clearly a correct governance and reformed governance, and – and is exactly – we have now a collection of reform, that are part of the method.
MARGARET BRENNAN: However that that is it, proper? You’re speaking about recognizing the Palestinian Authority, with some governance over the West Financial institution. Already was working with Israeli Safety Forces. However Hamas got here to energy by way of the poll field within the first place.
PRESIDENT EMMANUEL MACRON: Look, it is – if we’re trustworthy, it began (ph) totally different. And this is the reason I believe – let’s face the truth that lots of people have labored very onerous to kill the credibility of the Palestinian Authority in Gaza years in the past.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Uh-uh.
PRESIDENT EMMANUEL MACRON: And Hamas appeared as a – exactly a kind of different possibility.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Uh-uh.
PRESIDENT EMMANUEL MACRON: However (INAUDIBLE) assaults had been launched by Hamas, not by Palestinian Authority. And if we are saying all these dwelling in Gaza, and all these backing the Palestinian state are de facto elements of Hamas, there isn’t a finish to this battle, besides that you’ll kill everyone. And that is – that is horrible.
So, we have now to acknowledge that the Palestinian Authority needs to be reformed, the governance shouldn’t be passable at present. We want a brand new –
MARGARET BRENNAN: The chief is almost 90 years outdated.
PRESIDENT EMMANUEL MACRON: You’ve gotten a brand new – we’d like a brand new Palestinian Authority. However let’s simply comment and please discover with me that due to the work of mission course of (ph) we launched. For the primary time for a few years, we received ninth of June a collection of clear commitments from the Palestinian Authority. They refused him (ph). Now, the – the reform, a brand new vp being elected, a reform of the schooling program, (INAUDIBLE) of the (INAUDIBLE) program as nicely with the monitoring by a U.S. (INAUDIBLE).
So, we launched a collection –
MARGARET BRENNAN: They usually denounced the assault. They denounced October seventh.
PRESIDENT EMMANUEL MACRON: And for the very first time there have been –
MARGARET BRENNAN: Twenty months later.
PRESIDENT EMMANUEL MACRON: That is true, however for what? As a result of we made this transfer.
So, the popularity is the best way (INAUDIBLE) to reengage and produce them again and to desk. And my level is to say, let’s isolate Hamas. And let’s deal with the dismantling of Hamas from a navy and a political standpoint. So as to take action, we have now to reengage with those that may be, I’d say, a political achievement for the Palestinian individuals. And this is the reason the popularity is so necessary. And if we revert to West Financial institution, one of many key ingredient which triggered my choice to announce in July the angle of – as a recognition for the twenty second of September, is a vote of the Knesset. When the Knesset determined to start out the (INAUDIBLE) once more, in West Financial institution, it was the very best proof of the truth that they do not wish to – to combat towards Hamas. There is no such thing as a Hamas in West Financial institution. They only wish to destroy the prevailing political our bodies and the potential of two states. And I actually imagine it is a horrible mistake for Israel itself as a result of, in doing so, they only kill another perspective that (ph) battle.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Sure. However whenever you – I perceive the argument you’re making, nevertheless it has put you at direct odds with the Trump administration, who argue that your choice to make this recognition announcement, together with all these U.N. members, that it, in reality, kills the diplomacy they’d underway. They mentioned they had been working to get, for instance, the tax cash from the Israelis handy again over to the Palestinian Authority. That they had been doing sensible issues on the bottom to assist Palestinians.
Secretary Rubio mentioned that West Financial institution division you had been speaking about with the settlements, he drew a direct line to your recognition. Why do you suppose they’re blaming you for that?
PRESIDENT EMMANUEL MACRON: We – we – we’re carefully coordinated with the U.S. administration after we converse in regards to the ceasefire and the discharge of hostages. We had been at all times in shut coordination with the secretary of state or key – key – President Trump’s advisers to be able to work with Qatar, Egypt and Israel on the discharge of hostages, a ceasefire.
However your administration is specializing in the day after. And what we suggest is a full-fledged plan the place we have now first the emergency bundle. So, let’s ship the discharge of hostages, ceasefire and – and humanitarian entry.
The day we have now that, we begin the day after. And I believe we’re very convergent with the work which is being performed by – by your administration. What we would like is a de facto governance in Gaza with clearly a kind of transitional administration, together with the Palestinian Authority, excluding, clearly, Hamas, however with a vetting technique of Israel, and an affiliation of all of the neighbors. We now have a safety bundle on this – on this day after method, which is, let’s scale up the coaching of the policemen and safety forces of the Palestinians. And –
MARGARET BRENNAN: Who will do this?
PRESIDENT EMMANUEL MACRON: We – we’re already are doing that – are doing so. Many nation (INAUDIBLE). It does exist. However we have to scale up. And in parallel, we proposed, and we labored very carefully with the UK and all of the leaders of the area exactly to supply a navy, I’d say, a global power to be deployed in Gaza with a U.N. mandate, which is a singular framework to be defended, and – which may very well be reputable to help and – and again, I’d say, this policemen and safety forces. And –
MARGARET BRENNAN: However you understand Israel doesn’t belief the United Nations in any respect.
PRESIDENT EMMANUEL MACRON: No, I – it is a U.N. framework, however this – first they might have a vetting course of for (INAUDIBLE), and it could contain Jordan, Egypt, and a few others – some others are prepared as nicely to finance. However, clearly, it must be made in shut coordination with Israel.
And within the second (ph) bundle of – is a core ingredient is a dismantling of Hamas. There is no such thing as a different possibility. If you wish to repair the scenario, to disarm Hamas, and exactly to demobilize so many fighters, to arrange what we name a DDR (ph) course of, which may be very acquainted to all of the consultants in any such scenario. And that is on this day after for Gaza, within the safety bundle, as we are able to manage such a DDR vis-…-vis Hamas and to ensure that Hamas won’t ever be concerned within the Golans (ph) however units – Hamas can be disarmed, dismantled, with some key individuals to depart Gaza and another to be deradicalized and the weapons to be taken.
So as to take action, you want clear safety forces right here. You want worldwide forces to be right here. And, clearly, we have now the (INAUDIBLE). On that, I believe there’s a robust alignment with america.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Sure.
PRESIDENT EMMANUEL MACRON: My level is the popularity and the method we launch with that’s the solely solution to deliver with us on this monitor all of the neighbors and key nations to be able to ship such a bundle. And – and take a look at the scenario. In the present day, when Egypt, when so many leaders of the area will not be uncomfortable with what’s being performed, you want to re-engage them. And that is precisely what we’re doing.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So –
PRESIDENT EMMANUEL MACRON: However my level is to see, if we do not have this full bundle, the day after is inconceivable as a result of at present, de facto, you’re accepting the displacement of inhabitants in Gaza Metropolis. How would you like the day after to be doable in the event you displace hundreds of individuals?
MARGARET BRENNAN: Effectively, precisely on this level. Once you say day after, which means when the battle ends and a few sort of rebuilding occurs. What you are speaking about with the Trump administration is this concept of getting Palestinians go away Gaza, by alternative, they are saying, however some would say that could be a step in the direction of ethnic cleaning. The truth is, an unbiased fee arrange by the U.S. concluded Israel has a, quote, “intent to destroy Palestinians in Gaza as outlined by the genocide conference.” Does France agree with that report?
PRESIDENT EMMANUEL MACRON: No, we do not qualify as a genocide who’s taking place as a result of it’s not a political assertion. That is judges (ph) or the top – or the historians to qualify a genocide by a collection of proof and a transparent jurisprudence and – and clear components.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So, you reject that report and that discovering?
PRESIDENT EMMANUEL MACRON: No, I do not reject the report. This isn’t my level. My level is, it mustn’t – it shouldn’t be a political debate. What’s taking place is clearly quite a lot of civilians are being killed de facto underground, and the mission is to displace individuals. So, I believe it is a large mistake. And that is the place I attempt to persuade your administration that if we agree on the day after, and we would like this de facto authority, this safety bundle, the dismantling of Hamas and the reconstruction (ph), let’s work on the – on the present day.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Proper.
PRESIDENT EMMANUEL MACRON: If you happen to settle for de facto, Israel to displace its individuals, you’ll by no means see the day after. And by the best way, I look very rigorously in any respect the plans being shared by your administration or shared by consultants working on your administration, they at all times reiterate, let’s work and be collectively for Gazans. It signifies that they’re able to protect and shield Palestinian individuals as a result of Gazans are those that live in Gaza. But when the precondition of such a plan is to push them out, that is only a craziness. So, we – we shouldn’t be, for the credibility of america, for the credibility of France, we can’t be implicitly or explicitly complacent with such a mission as a result of such a mission, we all know it. And by the best way, the entire safety professional, even in Israel, are very clear on the very fact will probably be a humanitarian catastrophe. And this mission will kill the potential of the day after.
So, we have now to be very express on the truth that attacking civilians simply to get just a few – just a few terrorists and some fighters is clearly not acceptable, however displacing individuals so as simply to take a territory, which isn’t within the fingers of – of – of Israel, to be able to put together the day after, is not only a tad loopy,, however unacceptable for all of us.
(END VT)
MARGARET BRENNAN: The ultimate a part of our interview, after we come again.
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MARGARET BRENNAN: France has one of many largest Muslim and Jewish populations in Europe. And there was a major rise within the variety of anti-Semitic acts all over the world. In France, it is most than tripled not too long ago.
(BEGIN VT)
MARGARET BRENNAN: The U.S. ambassador to France, Charles Kushner, the daddy of the son-in-law to the president of america, Jared’s father, he revealed an article, and I do know you’ve got – you’ve got learn it, saying France shouldn’t be coping with anti-Semitism in France. He mentioned, “not a day passes with out Jews assaulted within the streets, synagogues or colleges defaced, or Jewish-owned companies vandalized. Your individual inside ministry reported anti-Semitic incidents, even at preschools.
Do you settle for this criticism as – as real and legitimate?
PRESIDENT EMMANUEL MACRON: By no means. I believe it is a mistake. And – and an unacceptable assertion for someone who is meant to be a diplomat. That is my –
MARGARET BRENNAN: Unacceptable assertion?
PRESIDENT EMMANUEL MACRON: Sure. By no means a French ambassador could be allowed to take action.
So – and so you’re a one that desires to specific freely (ph), positive. If you’re a diplomat, it’s a must to observe the function of diplomacy. And I am not the one. That is (INAUDIBLE) to be the ambassador of america in France. However the taxpayer cash shouldn’t be correctly used to finance this – this sort of assertion.
So, this isn’t a speech letter (ph) – phrase of an envoy. That is unacceptable. Now the matter is far more necessary. And the matter about anti-Semitism is, for me, one in all my high precedence. I used to be the primary president in France to undertake a definition of anti-Semitism, making it the equal of anti-Zionism (ph). And – And I’ve at all times been very engaged towards anti-Semitism. We have labored very onerous throughout the previous few years to be able to exactly reengage, have quicker sanctions, and I by no means uncared for this subject. And we took –
MARGARET BRENNAN: However you understand within the U.S. generally individuals hear criticism of Israel as anti-Semitic. And you’re saying it is totally different?
PRESIDENT EMMANUEL MACRON: No, however – no. My level is to say, you’ll be able to – you can’t reject the existence of Israel. Anti – anti-Zionism (ph) is unacceptable and is anti-Semitism. Nevertheless it does not imply that you’re not allowed to be in disagreement with the federal government of Israel, in any other case we’ll develop into loopy. I am sorry, however I – I wish to combat very onerous towards anti-Semitism. I – I am completely (ph) towards any anti-Zionist (ph) speech. However I do endorse to be in disagreement with Prime Minister Netanyahu and a few of his ministers on many subjects. It would not make me an anti-Semitic.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Has this harm your relationship with the U.S.?
PRESIDENT EMMANUEL MACRON: No, I do not suppose so.
MARGARET BRENNAN: No.
(Finish VT)
MARGARET BRENNAN: The whole interview is on our web site and our YouTube web page.
We’ll be again in a second.
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MARGARET BRENNAN: That is it for us at present. Thanks for watching. Till subsequent week. For “FACE THE NATION,” I am Margaret Brennan.
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