The next is the transcript of the interview with Financial institution of America Chairman and CEO Brian Moynihan that aired on “Face the Nation with Margaret Brennan” on Dec. 21, 2025. Editor’s word: This interview was filmed on Dec. 17, 2025.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Properly, thanks for making time.
BANK OF AMERICA CEO BRIAN MOYNIHAN: It is nice to be right here. Good to see you once more.
MARGARET BRENNAN: I need to discuss to you concerning the state of the financial system, as a result of our CBS polling is displaying that probably the most People requested this query say their vacation gadgets are arduous to afford.
MOYNIHAN: Yeah.
BRENNAN: They’re pulling again as a result of incomes will not be maintaining with inflation. However it’s a really totally different story. While you take a look at the higher revenue brackets, I do know you see information of precise transactions. Are individuals doing what they inform us they’re doing?
MOYNIHAN: So- so we not solely see it within the mixture, we additionally see it in items. And so in the event you look within the mixture, the quantity spent by means of the Thanksgiving weekend, on you recognize, Black Friday and Cyber Monday by means of all of the month of November and the primary a part of December, it’s- it is up four- 4 and 1 / 4, 4 and a half % versus final 12 months’s November. And so it is rising. After which in the event you look by terciles, three buckets of revenue ranges, it is clear the individuals within the backside revenue stage, at decrease revenue ranges are spending a bit of sooner development fee, however nonetheless rising and within the center and higher sooner. So, you recognize, what they’re telling you is, what they really feel, what they’re really seeing, is spending is actually stable, fairly stable heading into the tip of the 12 months, and it has been sort of going alongside like that each one of December. Now, wages have grown, however inflation bothers individuals. Jobs are you recognize, the unemployment fee’s very low, but it surely’s been rising. So there’s a number of dialogue in there. On the finish of day, persons are spending they’ve good credit score high quality. They’re employed, and wait- we are able to see wages rising in as individuals’s paychecks are available at a 3% clip. So it is a- it is fairly stable proper now.
BRENNAN: Is that also, although stilted in direction of the higher revenue brackets? Is it that Ok formed financial system some individuals discuss about–
MOYNIHAN Our crew places the- appears to be like at this. Sure, it the expansion fee distinction is larger, however all of- all of the third, a 3rd, a 3rd, all three thirds are rising.
BRENNAN: And also you suppose that can proceed?
MOYNIHAN: That is been steady. And so that is the query. They develop at totally different charges, however they’re all rising, which all means they’re placing extra money within the financial system than they did this time final 12 months.
BRENNAN: Why do you suppose individuals have sentiment that is low however spending that is larger?
MOYNIHAN: It is- you hear about it, you have talked about it. It is this query of affordability and costs and attempting to determine how that- as a result of we had a really, a really unusual course of from 20 by means of now, we had COVID lockdown, then we had all of the stimulus, and we had excessive inflation, after which we had wages caught as much as it. And in the event you draw a line and say, Here is wages and this is spending and this is value development, it’s- they keep in sync throughout a protracted time frame, however they went at totally different occasions, and they also noticed the inflation and 20 and 23 and 24 that that was on their minds, they usually need to see it subsist, and it will take a short time to subsist. However as you go into 26 having come by means of 25 the incremental hit of that might be decrease. And even when the Fed appears to be like at they suppose inflation retains working its approach down. However it’s- it is what individuals really feel, and you’ll’t low cost that. And it is also at sure job classes and stuff, there’s been extra dislocation, and that is on account of a few of the authorities downsizing and a few of the different issues happening. However, but it surely’s, it is not widespread at 4, you recognize, 4.6% unemployment within the final quantity they publish, that is nonetheless in the- in our enterprise careers, is definitely a really low unemployment fee, frankly,
BRENNAN: And what do you see then as the largest threat to the financial system?
MOYNIHAN Properly, whenever you look out forward, it is, it is it is the query wars is one other factor that might actually shake up the markets. However the actual query is- is- will the patron preserve spending within the US? We now have the US financial system rising about 2.4% subsequent 12 months. We now have in- however that is dependent upon a shopper that stays engaged. If the patron turns into much less engaged as we transfer into 20- from 25 into 26 and slows down their spending. That is going to decelerate the financial system. In order that’s a threat. You simply do not see it anyplace now. The second threat is wars and different issues that might go on that might create shocks to the market. And you recognize, then there’s the standard issues, cyber occasions and issues like that. However the actual threat is, will the People, if the businesses of America make use of individuals and pay them a bit of bit extra, they are going to spend an financial system within the US will likely be high-quality, after which you could have these investments within the stimulus from the uh, the tax act, you could have the stimulus from a few of the investments coming in which might be preserve kicking in. And that is why our crew went from one and a half %, in all probability 4 months in the past, to 2 and a half %, 2.4% for 26 now, yeah.
BRENNAN: Okay, so prior to now 12 months, commerce and tariffs, there have been a number of shocks to the system. It was a giant concern, however Financial institution of America now tasks President Trump’s technique is one in all de escalation, not escalation. Does that imply you see this commerce warfare with China cooling off?
MOYNIHAN: Properly, I believe- in the event you return to the place we have been in April, there was a number of lack of expertise about the place this is able to find yourself, and that affected small businesses–
BRENNAN: There was shock–
MOYNIHAN: –and medium dimension businesses–
BRENNAN: There was shock.
MOYNIHAN: They have been shocked.
BRENNAN: There was shock on liberation day.
MOYNIHAN: The sheer dimension, the quantity, the {dollars}, throughout the board, et cetera. What you say now, as occasions moved on, it is type of a 15% on one aspect, after which the next quantity primarily based on individuals who will not commit to buy from the US, or will not decide to decreasing their non tariff boundaries and issues like that. And so the query, after I discuss to overseas governments they usually ask you the query about what’s this all mean–or overseas CEOs–you say, look, you bought a alternative. You may be right here or be right here. You simply should make the selection. You are going to be- drive extra in direction of America, and you’ll come down to fifteen% to go from a ten% throughout the board, to fifteen% for the broad base of nations, not a huge effect. And that is the place our crew says it is beginning to- it is beginning to de escalate, and that you just’re beginning to see the decision of the discussions into 15% right here 17 totally different numbers. While you put China, China’s a unique query, as a result of the nationwide safety pursuits, the uncommon earth minerals, the magnets, batteries, simply AI, all that stuff. It is a very totally different case. And I believe additionally between Mexico and China, the USMCA, which must be redone, can be a unique case. However broadly on the earth, you’ll be able to see type of the tip level right here and now they’ve simply acquired to (INAUDIBLE)- it is set to work by means of the system.
BRENNAN: How a lot of a toll has that taken on small companies? I perceive B of A is the most important small enterprise lender.
MOYNIHAN: So we are the largest small enterprise lender. If we have been sitting right here within the second quarter of this 12 months, it was a giant toll. They have been very- as a result of charges have gone up, and that prices them extra money as a result of they borrow on revolving strains of credit score. In different phrases, they borrow a floating fee, after which the tariffs got here in and induced them I am undecided I can get the products at what value and the way can I commit? However as you went by means of the 12 months, charges got here down a bit of bit, in order that they’re extra their situation proper now could be, can I get the labor I must do, to bid the contracts, to do the work I am doing? As a result of the immigration insurance policies have not settled in but, and that is inflicting individuals concern. It is not that they agree with them or are disagreeing. They only must have the reply, and that is what they’re in search of. So in the event you suppose throughout 4 coverage regimes, tax-trade-tariff, immigration, after which in the end, deregulation. You have seen a decision of a number of them, however I believe the following one for small enterprise, what they inform us is labor availability. How they get there may be, I would like individuals to do that work, and I have to be reliable. They’re right here. So give me a algorithm and I am going to go play with them. However I have to be clarified what the principles are.
BRENNAN: The labor shortage situation, individuals simply cannot discover folks–
MOYNIHAN: The- dependability and people who find themselves in all probability not something to do with what the insurance policies are about feel- really feel in a different way, and that is if they do not really feel they’ll go to work, if they do not really feel they’ll do issues that that simply has to resolve. And small companies are usually most impacted as a result of they do not have our fantastic analysis crew to determine all of it out and discuss and discuss to the massive purchasers who produce other groups to do it, and that is trickier. So I believe, and by the best way, the administration understands that they are engaged on it, they’re attempting to determine tips on how to get that half put collectively so it is clear what the insurance policies will likely be and will not be, in order that, or aren’t, or, extra importantly, aren’t, actually what the those that the sick settled down, however that that situation of labor was a 23 situation after the nice resignation disappeared from small, medium sized companies got here again in actually due to the place, the place we’re from this summer season on.
BRENNAN: One of many different huge components, it appears within the jobs market, is that this query of synthetic intelligence. How a lot is B of A counting on AI to do issues like predict mortgage defaults or establish dangers?
MOYNIHAN: Properly, so I believe the best way that the patron would really feel AI at Financial institution of America is Erica. So in the event you go on our cell app- you there is a bot there. It is an agent. It has been there for a few years. It does 2 million buyer interfaces a day. So it is not small. 20 million prospects actively use it. It will possibly reply 700 questions. In order that’s actual and been happening. And in order that’s the best way a buyer would really feel it. For those who’re a company buyer, you’d really feel with Erica’s embed in our money pro- so your portal you go to as an organization to make funds or FX transactions, and also you need to ask questions, Erica is there. In order that’s- that you just’re asking about one thing totally different. We now have used fashions for years about predicting defaults. So we do stress testing. These are all fashions to foretell the result. We now have loss given defaults, default predictions. That is all there. Can these assist us make us extra knowledgeable? Sure, can they assist various kinds of staff function sooner? Completely. So we’re deploying throughout all our teammates AI, have entry to AI instruments. The- there are specialised AI instruments in sure areas, however we expect the best greatest use close to time period is both discrete course of utility or in serving to us construct clever to excessive ranges. However to interface to a buyer, you must have your information proper. You must have the controls proper, as a result of you’ll be able to’t give the client the fallacious reply, whether or not it is, I’ll approve your mortgage or not, and that is why this will likely be a little- take a bit of extra care to implement in buyer dealing with enterprise with belief, which is what monetary companies is.
BRENNAN: Properly, I ask it as a result of there’s that query of what number of human jobs get changed, proper? And whenever you take a look at that latest Enterprise Roundtable Survey of CEOs, they predict that whereas there may be spending on know-how and AI, they are not hiring going up. They see it really decreasing.
MOYNIHAN: So, so there is a couple issues that’s what’s on individuals’s minds, and that is once we discuss to our teammates. We’re saying, Hey, we will carry AI and make it extra environment friendly, after which we acquired to supply extra exercise. And you do not have to fret. For those who seize AI and use it in your everyday work, that is a fantastic factor. And so it is not a menace to their jobs. However then again, I believe individuals at the moment are assuming they are going to get advantages, and we’ll see in the event that they get these advantages. However you recognize, in the event you suppose from 1969 to 2019, it was 50 years, a number of know-how got here in America employs twice as many individuals in 2019 as we did in 1969. So will this wind up? I do not know, and no one actually is aware of for certain, as a result of we have not ever had it. However then again, there is a functionality in our firm. The industrial bankers are calling on industrial prospects. In the event that they get 10% extra environment friendly, we could not add lots to develop, however doesn’t suggest we’re gonna take away and get the efficiency- we need to develop. We need to drive extra development. So the AI will likely be spent- the efficiencies from AI will likely be spent to continue to grow the corporate, I believe.
BRENNAN: So, it is an issue for the brand new faculty grad, but it surely’s not essentially a layoff that you just’re making, basically.
MOYNIHAN: Yeah, nicely, we simply employed 2000 plus new faculty grads in July, so it’s- we did not change the scale of class- my recommendation to these youngsters, in the event you ask them in the event that they’re apprehensive about, they are saying they’re apprehensive about- these are youngsters that we rent, 200,000 purposes, we rent 2000 individuals. They got here into our firm. For those who ask them, in the event that they’re scared, they are saying they’re. And I perceive that. However I- says, harness it, and also you should not. It will be your world forward of you.
BRENNAN: Let me ask you concerning the mortgage enterprise. You have acquired a giant one. The Fed says exercise within the housing sector is weak. What do you see is behind that hesitation?
MOYNIHAN: There are two elements to it. One is the speed construction is larger, so it is simply slowed down the exercise. So if persons are going to promote a home to maneuver as much as a much bigger home or one thing, the price of debt goes to go up. In order that’s slowing down that exercise. The second is constructing. And there is housing quantity shortages everywhere in the nation. Some single- you could possibly have single household, multi small multi ground models, issues like that. Or much more, greater multi household, main cities, however there is a common housing scarcity, as a result of for therefore a few years it has been arduous to get housing permitted, and so the recommendation I give to anyone is you are in all probability not going to see the ten 12 months charges go down. Our teammates suppose the Fed funds fee will get the low of three and however the tenure fee stays between 4 and 4 and a half, which suggests the mortgage fee will not be lots totally different than this immediately, however in the event you improve provide, you will preserve costs flat, and wages will develop by means of it. And also you’re beginning to see costs have flattened out in lots of locations. So you bought to construct provide, and you bought to get allowing carried out, and you bought to try this might be the answer. Transferring mortgage charges 50 foundation factors won’t be an enormous change. When you could have a bunch of individuals 3% mortgage charges, that is not going to be modified. And by the best way, for the American financial system, we don’t need to have an financial system that has to have that low fee construction once more, as a result of meaning we’re not rising, we’re not profitable, and we’re in all probability offsetting a recession. So we should not be cheering for 3% mortgage charges. It was an anomaly that occurred, and now we acquired to get again to regular.
BRENNAN: Properly, you do hear the administration speak about charges coming down is an efficient factor? You are simply saying it is not a easy, fast repair.
MOYNIHAN: Properly, for the housing market, as a result of there’s 60 million- there’s 130 odd million households in America, half of them do not have a mortgage. That is this complete lock in query will not be even a related query. They hire, and so you bought to bring- rental affordability is a query. Or they personal outright, and that is a unique query. They inherit a home, you recognize, third technology, or one thing like that. So it is a very advanced factor, however simplistic- simplistically, if mortgage charges come down, individuals will pay extra. The truth is, if costs come down, individuals have extra affordability on that aspect. So I believe it really works itself by means of. However we had a really totally different fee atmosphere for lots of years, and that’s- that is arduous for individuals to consider, as a result of individuals below the age of 40, 2,3, 4, no, weren’t out working in an atmosphere the place we had a 3% Fed funds fee, which is extra the norm than not.
BRENNAN: So let me ask you about Fannie and Freddie. Taxpayers took a stake in the course of the monetary disaster in these mortgage lenders. The Treasury Secretary stated that they’re anticipated to return to the general public market within the subsequent 12 months, with the federal government promoting a portion of that stake. Does Financial institution of America have a task in that transaction? However- however for shoppers, is that really going to push up the price of proudly owning a house?
MOYNIHAN: I do not speak about consumer relationships, however look, it will not in the event that they preserve the assure. And- and the administration is aware of that, Secretary Bessent is aware of it that assure helps preserve that mortgage fee down, but additionally supplies a 30 12 months mortgage. As a result of now, whenever you make a mortgage mortgage with no authorities assure for a borrower who could also be on the qualification ranges, there are extra advantageous to borrow. You make a choice for the following 30 years that the borrower goes to be okay, or a number of years. In order that assure is vital to U.S. getting mounted fee mortgages and having a number of mortgage availability, after which they’ve run the issues fairly accountable since monetary disaster. Down funds have stayed substantial. So the credit score high quality of present portfolios is fairly good. And so they cannot lose that, as a result of that was the explanation. One of many the explanation why we had the monetary disaster was the low down funds and many mortgage loans with zero fairness in them. And as quickly as costs on homes got here down, the entire thing exploded, and all America was affected. So I believe they’re very aware all that, and I believe- however they’re vital of the U.S. housing system. They at all times have been. They’re a fantastic firm. They seem to be a iconic firm for the U.S., frankly, now to place them collectively and are working nicely.
BRENNAN: So the president has introduced that he desires all these sweeping modifications to the Federal Reserve. Chair Powell is ready to retire from the job in Could. For somebody at house, how a lot does that job matter to the patron. How do you clarify that?
MOYNIHAN: Properly, it is one of many attention-grabbing issues. So the President’s going to nominate a brand new chair of the Federal Reserve. Presidents throughout- for the reason that Federal Reserve, 100 plus years in the past, was based, have carried out that, it is not new. He is acquired nice candidates. He’ll appoint any person, and we’ll assist that candidate get the knowledge to achieve success, and so we’ll see what he does. However that is his prerogative. You realize, that is he ought to do it. There’s- my thoughts, there’s an excessive amount of fascination with the Fed. We’re not- we’re a country- we’re a rustic that is pushed by the non-public sector, by what individuals do, and within the companies and the businesses, small firms and enormous firms, medium sized firms, and entrepreneurs and medical doctors and lawyer- all these individuals drive our financial system. The concept that we’re like hanging on the thread by the Fed transferring charges 25 foundation factors, it appears to me we have gotten out of whack. And so we acquired to get- for the reason that monetary disaster, the Fed had a giant position in stabilizing the financial system. That is what they’re imagined to do. That went away variety of years in the past. It got here again a bit of bit in COVID. They seem to be a lender of final resort. They’re there to stabilize markets and price- however different web you should not know they exist fairly frankly–
BRENNAN: –So you do not fear about all this, you recognize, handwringing of political interference with the Fed, as soon as that new place is–
MOYNIHAN: –The market is a- will punish individuals if we do not have an unbiased Fed. And everyone is aware of that.
BRENNAN: Let me ask you about Trump accounts. They’re attempting to construct generational wealth. The administration says by having these rich donors, state governments, employers put cash in these tax benefit accounts for youths as an addition to the federal authorities placing some cash into a few of them, are you going to have a task in that program? And what do you suppose extra broadly about increasing the variety of individuals placing cash within the inventory market, in these index funds.
MOYNIHAN: So I believe primary, if- at our firm beginning 2017 we- after the tax act from that 12 months, a number of firms gave their staff $1,000 bonus. We began doing one thing else the following 12 months, which we stored going and I’ve gone since. So our 200,000 plus staff yearly get an award of inventory throughout the entire board, and that is constructed as much as be s–
BRENNAN: –Many firms try this, restricted inventory.
MOYNIHAN: Yeah, but it surely’s gone on for now. A variety of them did it as soon as, did not do it, however only a few have carried out it that a lot. And that is like $6 billion of inventory have gone into these staff. And so I imagine in inventory possession by everyone. I imagine in holding that inventory and appreciating. And so we imagine in that, we’ve got a 401k, that individuals can make investments, we’ve got 7% match and all that stuff. These accounts, I believe, are additionally good. The query is, you recognize, the dad and mom should make the contributions, and the federal government will put some cash in, however the broader merchandise obtainable for folks, it will be good to save lots of. However I believe we shouldn’t- we should always do that, however we even have to recollect monetary training. As a result of if you may get an training usually, in abilities coaching, as a result of if any person might earn $10,000 extra a 12 months than they’d in any other case earn, or they’ll stability their finances and be money circulate constructive to $10,000. That goes on for his or her, you recognize, from their first job, 21,18, right through 65 that’s some huge cash. The place this for 18 years, will likely be some huge cash, but it surely’ll be- it will cease the place that can go on perpetually. So we’d like this sort of work. And I expose the fairness markets underinvesting in America and all these issues, very low price the place the index funds doesn- it had foundation factors the place they have been saying that is all the suitable option to do it. By the best way, it was again to privatization, Social Safety in these days and that stuff.
BRENNAN: Is that this mainly a approach to try this? I imply, each child abruptly has a inventory market funding.
MOYNIHAN: It will- I imply, we’ll should see. You and I will not be round 50 years, 60 years from now, perhaps you’ll be, I will not be round 60 years from now to consider it. However it- you know- it will, it will try this. However fairness funding by individuals holding that and having have to carry it to allow them to’t churn it and promote it. And that is, that is a superb factor. So I believe it is a fantastic product. I believe it is fantastic that persons are stepping up and contributing to it. All of us have to consider an employer, as a result of we’ve got that inventory program, which is a number of thousand {dollars} to staff. And, you recognize, we’ve got our 401k match. And if we do that, how does that work? And stuff like that. However- and in the event you do it for youths, what do you do for the remainder of individuals? You’ve this query that not everyone in our firm has youngsters. And so if I put the match in for- if I put the cash for individuals with youngsters, what I do with individuals with out youngsters? So there’s a bit of extra advanced, but it surely’s a superb factor, and I believe we’ll determine tips on how to take part and make it occur.
BRENNAN: So again in August, once we spoke, you talked about these allegations of banks enjoying politics and discriminating towards conservatives. You pushed again fairly arduous in that second. However earlier this month, the Trump administration launched preliminary findings about banks, together with Financial institution of America. It is a six web page report. There’s reference to your environmental and sustainability-related selections that have been made in the course of the Biden administration. Do you are feeling you must undo these? Have you ever undone them?
MOYNIHAN: A variety of them have been- have been undone or made extra exact as a result of the interpretation wasn’t really what went on. So in the event you learn the web site, you could possibly say, oh, they’re doing this. And the fact was that is not what was going- by no means was meant. And so we do not debank anyone for spiritual or political causes. We made the insurance policies clear so individuals might see it. We welcome all of the enter from the banking regulators and others. And we’ll, we’ll take a look at anyone who, who feels we- imagine me, they- individuals have thought they have been closed for causes that they could not perceive. We have checked out that in all probability, you recognize, as a result of prospects can come to our firm and say, ‘you have closed my account, why?’ And we are able to inform them. However I believe persons are forgetting the explanation why a number of this went on was reputational threat was an evaluation course of that went on, and it was actual. And, and imagine me, you recognize, individuals would learn the paper and stated, you recognize, Jane Smith, John Smith, you are doing enterprise with them. They did one thing fallacious. You have to be a fail as an organization, and subsequently we will write you up.
BRENNAN: That was in the course of the Biden administration that sort of–
MOYNIHAN: –even–
BRENNAN: –social strain you are saying–
MOYNIHAN: –20 years ago–
BRENNAN: 20 years in the past, okay–
MOYNIHAN: It has been happening for a very long time. It simply stored build up, after which it is after which the second factor is that, that for AML and KYC points, we needed to shut accounts. And so the extent of a transaction was set in 1972 at 10,000 and you’ve got two issues, if it goes above that, you must pour it down, if it goes a number of ones near that. That hasn’t been modified since 1972. That quantity could be 80,000 immediately, so what we thought was materials then–
BRENNAN: –in phrases of, like, suspicious transactions.
MOYNIHAN: Yeah, and so and so. There’s a number of overwork right here that we’re attempting to- in the event that they get these rules proper, that will likely be very useful. So there’s type of the ESG aspect of it, these issues I believe a number of us mounted to ensure they’re primarily based on threat and actual information and stuff. As a result of this was happening far earlier than the brand new administration got here in, frankly, in states and different locations. There may be the query of getting the AML, KYC letter after which the repute threat, which to the credit score of the present federal bankers, they’ve taken that off the desk.
BRENNAN: as a result of there actually aren’t that many factors of settlement today between Wall Avenue and the White Home. However this situation the president himself actually dug into and he stated that Financial institution of America declined to open new accounts for him and his household after his first time period in workplace. Do you suppose you have patched issues up? I imply, it’s- are you aware what he is speaking about?
MOYNIHAN: We- I would not speak about consumer relationships with anyone, however we–
BRENNAN: He stated it on tv, about you.
MOYNIHAN: I do know that. Individuals- if I had a nickel for all the pieces everyone stated about me on tv it- you recognize, I might be wealthy. So on the finish of day, we financial institution everyone. We now have 125,000 spiritual organizations. We now have 70 million shoppers. We now have tens of thou- we’ve got the largest small enterprise lender within the nation interval and cease. You realize? And so, you recognize, the concept we toss individuals out, it is, it is simply not true. So I will not get into a person buyer and their, and their factors of view. However look, a few of these insurance policies, we have been pushed to locations that we have been capable of carry again to the middle and America ought to be ok with that.
BRENNAN: And also you suppose the issues are copacetic now. You place this behind you with the White Home?
MOYNIHAN: Sure.
BRENNAN: Okay, I am getting a wrap over right here on time. So thanks for making time for us.
MOYNIHAN: Joyful Holidays, thanks.
BRENNAN: Joyful Holidays to you.
