The next is the transcript of an interview with College of Chicago professor Robert Pape that aired on “Face the Nation with Margaret Brennan” on Sept. 14, 2025.
MAJOR GARRETT: Welcome again. We’ll take a more in-depth have a look at the issue of political violence in America. And we’re joined now, I am glad to say, by College of Chicago Professor Robert Pape. He is the founding director of the Chicago Undertaking on Safety and Threats. Professor, it is nice to have you ever with us. Thanks for becoming a member of us. What are the development strains, and what’s the key terminology you need my viewers to know?
PROFESSOR ROBERT PAPE: We at the moment are in a watershed second for what I name the period of violent populism in America. This period is outlined, before everything, by two elements: Primary, a rising tide of political violence on each the correct and the left. And simply suppose, and I wish to return to 2002 simply consider the attack- the assassination try on Nancy Pelosi, Democratic Chief of the Home, missed her, virtually killed her husband. The try on Brett Kavanaugh, conservative Supreme Court docket Justice. Two makes an attempt on Republican candidate Donald Trump, after which the- in Minnesota just some months in the past, not simply makes an attempt, however precise assassinations of Democratic leaders. Josh Shapiro, Governor of Pennsylvania. And now, we see Charlie Kirk assassinated. And what we’re seeing is that this clear rising development in numbers of assaults, side-by-side with that, although, we’re additionally seeing a rising tide, a groundswell of help for political violence on each the correct and the left that corresponds with this rising development of political violence on each the correct and the left. Our Middle on the College of Chicago Undertaking on Safety and Threats, we’ve been conducting extremely dependable nationwide surveys on political violence- the help for political violence amongst People for over 4 years. We began this in the summertime of 2021. Our most up-to-date survey in- survey in Could discovered larger ranges of help for political violence on each the correct and the left than we’ve ever seen, and that is one of many explanation why I rang the alarm bell with that large op-ed within the New York Instances in June saying we’re on the cusp of main political violence, and I am sorry to say we’re now proper within the grip of violent populism.
MAJOR GARRETT: And in that survey information, is it that individuals who reply to your survey say, to reconcile myself to the political final result I need- I can be prepared to resort to violence? Is that the important thing connection level?
: The important thing connection is the actual political grievance. So we requested, simply provide you with an instance, 39% of Democrats say they agree that the usage of power is justified to take away Donald Trump from the presidency. Once we go deeper to probe what do they imply by use of power? 55% are speaking about assassinations. They’re speaking about deadly makes use of of power. That is why we use that time period. On the correct, we additionally requested that exact same survey. We discovered 24% of Republicans agree that Donald Trump is justified in utilizing the US army to suppress democratic protesters. So these are very particular questions. Now we have an entire slew of those questions in order that we actually can converse with nice precision about what are the grievances that individuals wish to say use of power is justified. We all know what the that means of that time period is, after which we are able to see Democrat-Republican within the cross-tabs.
MAJOR GARRETT: Does your analysis buttress the purpose that each Senator Lankford and Senator Coons made, which is the web is an accelerant and an amplifier?
: It is an accelerant, nevertheless it’s not the basis trigger. So, learning this drawback now for 5 years, I discovered that simply as all over the world, large social change, it drives political violence. We see this in different international locations all over the world, and- however the particulars of the change range. We at the moment are shifting for the primary time in our nation’s 250-year historical past, from a white majority democracy, to a white minority democracy. In 1990, we had been 76% non-Hispanic white. Immediately, we’re 57% non-Hispanic white. Will probably be one other 10 years, perhaps 15 if we deport lots of these undocumented, unlawful immigrants, earlier than we make the transition to a really white-minority democracy. Effectively, this generational change has occurred. It began about 10 years in the past, with the true tipping level era and corresponds with the rise of Donald Trump, why his difficulty of immigration is meteoric, why it is morphed from immigration that means cease folks crossing the border to now deporting mass numbers of individuals, as a result of there are folks on the correct who wish to cease or reverse this, and in addition the virulent response to Donald Trump on the left- on elements of the left, who wish to preserve this going. That is actually the taproot, and that is why we have to expect- this left to its personal units will worsen and be with us for 10 years.
MAJOR GARRETT: So, this can be a demographic story that’s making a political backlash that will get amplified and accelerated on-line. Do I’ve that proper?
: You have bought it precisely proper. And these are why it isn’t the web isn’t vital. It is a reinforcing issue. And there’s –
MAJOR GARRETT: In different phrases, it is too simplistic to say it is the web?
: Precisely. As a result of-that’s why- a couple of years in the past, folks challenged my findings, and mentioned, oh no, no, we’ll simply deplatform folks. So the issue right here is simply the web, so we’ll deplatform X, Y, and Z. We deplatformed X, Y, and Z, and you realize what? Did not miss a beat. And the reason being as a result of, sure, it’s an additional- it is like throwing gasoline on the fireplace, however the web isn’t the fireplace itself. There’s one thing happening, which is basically radicalizing our politics. And I am sorry to say, this can be a story that we have seen all over the world, in different international locations, different instances. And so this is- that is the social change resulting in radicalized politics that adjustments winners and losers in our society for actual, and that is resulting in political violence.
MAJOR GARRETT: Professor, it has at all times been a trademark of this nation, we’ve form of thought of ourselves as having this experiment that has a lot of variations of opinion, spasms of violence, however in the long run, we reconcile and we transfer ahead. Are you any kind of optimistic about that and that underlying assumption in regards to the core potential of America than you had been beforehand?
: The longer term is in our palms. This isn’t locked-in with future. That mentioned, if we do nothing, this can preserve getting worse. The primary factor we’ve to do is we want our political leaders to step up. And we simply noticed an occasion of that, simply beforehand, the place we’ve Senators from either side of the aisle making a joint video look. Effectively, that is actually quite- to sentence violence. That is vital, as a result of the leaders can restrain their very own constituents. Once they bad-mouth the opposite facet’s constituents, our information reveals that makes the whole lot worse. That is the worst of all doable worlds, as a result of it produces defiance. We have to step that up. What would step that up? A summit between President Trump, Governor Newsom, and Governor Pritzker, a public session the place they, all collectively, condemn political violence.
MAJOR GARRETT: Professor Pape, I am very glad you are right here. Modeling conduct issues in lots of contexts, in life, political, and in any other case. Thanks very a lot. We’ll be again in only a second.
